Transcript provided by Kensho.

Lindsey Hall

I'm Lindsey Hall.

Esther Whieldon

And I'm Esther Whieldon.

Lindsey Hall

Welcome to All Things Sustainable, a podcast from S&P Global. As your hosts, we'll dive into all the sustainability topics that are reshaping the business world.

Esther Whieldon

Join us every Friday for in-depth analysis and interviews with leaders from around the globe. Together, we'll break down big sustainability headlines and cut through the jargon. Last week, we took a deep dive into methane. We looked at how advances in monitoring and measuring methane emission in oil and gas operations have made it possible for energy companies to address these in the near term. As a quick refresher, methane is the second largest contributor to global warming behind carbon dioxide and it traps more heat in the atmosphere as well.

Lindsey Hall

In today's episode, we're sticking with the topic of methane. We'll explore the challenges related to eliminating methane emissions at abandoned oil and gas wells. And as we'll hear, these sites present a unique set of challenges. We heard last week that curbing methane emissions from oil and gas operations can be relatively straightforward and cost effective, especially once you identify the source of the leaks. And the facilities where these leaks are occurring are often under the control of oil and gas companies.

Lindsey Hall

The fossil fuel sector is responsible for nearly one-third of methane emissions from human activity today. Record production of oil, gas and coal, combined with limited mitigation efforts has kept emissions above 120 million metric tons annually. That's according to the International Energy Agency's 2025 Global Methane Tracker released in May. The report presents the IEA's latest sector-wide emissions estimates. And IEA calls methane abatement a crucial opportunity to reduce near-term global warming at a time when temperatures worldwide have set record highs for 2 years running.

Esther Whieldon

This is the first time the IEA's global methane tracker has included estimated emissions from abandoned facilities like oil and gas wells and coal mines, which the agency says constitute a significant source of methane emissions. Based on the limited data currently available, the IEA estimates that there are around 8 million abandoned onshore oil and gas wells globally that released more than 3 million metric tons of methane in 2024. And the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has estimated there are around 3.9 million abandoned oil and gas wells in the U.S. alone.

Esther Whieldon

Abandoned oil and gas wells are no longer in production because they have reached the end of their useful life. They can include so-called orphaned wells, meaning those wells have no responsible owner. And as we'll hear today, in the case of orphaned wells, the financial responsibility for cleaning them up and stopping their emissions often falls to states or private landowners, which leads us to the final challenge, how to finance the cleanup and mitigation of emissions from abandoned wells.

Esther Whieldon

To get a better sense of how some companies are tackling methane emissions at abandoned facilities, we're talking with Zefiro Methane Corp., an environmental services company that specializes in methane abatement at abandoned oil and gas wells in the U.S. Zefiro is a portfolio company of private equity firm X Machina Capital Strategies or XMC, which is based in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. As we'll hear today, XMC's goal is to transform oil and gas assets into long-term sustainable solutions.

Esther Whieldon

We talk with Catherine Flax, Founding Member and President of Private Markets at XMC. On June 5, 2025, Catherine was appointed Interim CEO of Zefiro Methane Corp. She also serves on Zehiro's Board of Directors. We'll also talk with Talal Debs, Founder and Managing Partner of XMC. Talal was CEO of Zehiro from November 2023 until Catherine was appointed Interim CEO in June 2025, which means Talal was CEO of Zefiro at the time of our interview. First up, let's hear from Catherine, who starts off by outlining the scope of the challenge.

Catherine Flax

My background is about 30 years in the world of energy, lots of that in sales and trading and also in investments. And we started XMC about 4 years ago, focusing on how to think differently about the needs of energy transformation from traditional energy into cleaner sources of energy for the future. What we recognized was that there was a shortage of investment going into upstream oil and gas or the producing assets of oil and gas, traditional energy and some of that for a very good reason.

Catherine Flax

And when you think about an oil field, it is a very, very dirty asset or a gas field, and they deplete. And as they run out of the existing oil and gas that are in the basin, you're basically left with a lot of holes that were there for the production of energy, and they often leak. And that's one of the ways that an oil or gas field is perpetually contributing to environmental issues that are also obligations, financial obligations, of the producer.

Catherine Flax

And so we, as a company, are looking at a number of different ways of how do you clean up those assets, how do you turn them into something else. But sort of first step is if you have methane leaks, which are all over this country and this world, stopping that from happening is a very sort of practical way of taking that first step towards making this more usable asset in a different way. So we built a company, one of our platform companies, is specifically focused on the plugging of wells and the abatement of methane for that purpose.

Esther Whieldon

Can you give me a sense of scope of how big of a challenge is this?

Catherine Flax

From a U.S. perspective, estimates are between probably about 3.5 million to 5 million orphaned and abandoned oil and gas wells. And so when you think about that, how else to frame that, it's about a $500 billion unfunded liability that exists that these oil wells and gas wells are just sitting out there. And many of them are leaking and sometimes significantly leaking methane. And that means that there is an estimate of about 14 million Americans living within a mile of a leaking oil and gas well.

Catherine Flax

Methane is a poison. You breathe it, you're going to die or get very ill. And so this is a public health issue. It's also a commercial issue. It makes properties unusable. So there's real very, very practical reasons for wanting to clean up those oil and gas wells, not to mention the fact that every day, new oil and gas wells deplete. So there are other not orphaned or abandoned, but actually owned oil and gas wells that also need to be plugged.

Esther Whieldon

Who is currently responsible for those assets?

Catherine Flax

It's a little bit of a feature of how the oil and gas industry has developed in the United States, which is that it is the owner of the oil and gas field that is responsible for the plugging of end-of-life wells, whether they leak or not. But what's happened over the years is you've had very, very large, very well-capitalized companies, but there's a point at which the fields get to be not that prolific. And it's the natural business then is for these larger oil companies to sell it to the mid-sized oil companies who are more in the business of smaller fields, maybe less prolific wells. And then those get to a point where they're not interesting to those companies anymore, and they sell it to very small oil companies who then often sell them to moms-and-pops, who then often go bankrupt at the end of that chain.

Catherine Flax

And so that's why we have 5 million orphan and abandoned wells in this country because eventually, nobody owns them. And that's really problematic. Now, there have been instances where there have been lawsuits and try to go back up the chain to the big oil companies. But fundamentally, for the most part, these are liabilities that exist within states. And so the states have them as their responsibility. But it's a little bit of a hot potato of kind of whose responsibility is this. So some states have been more proactive about trying to either use state or federal funds to attack the problem.

Catherine Flax

But even in the money that was there at the federal level for plugging, it's just a very small amount relative to the actual cost of the plugging or the liability that's out there. And that's part of why we've tried to build a company that can be profitable plugging wells using different approaches. So certainly, part of our work is working with responsible oil companies who say, no, I actually do want to plug the wells when they get to the end-of-life. And so that's a big part of our business. Some of it is working with state funds as well. But also, that's why we have a carbon credit business because if we adopt wells that are leaking, we can plug them and generate carbon credits and have that as an additional revenue source. And we certainly prefer to have market solutions if they can be available to solve this problem.

Esther Whieldon

Catherine mentioned that Zefiro Methane Corp. sells carbon credits into the voluntary carbon market to finance the plugging of orphaned wells. Carbon markets are trading systems where carbon credits can be bought and sold to offset emissions. Countries and companies can use them to lower their carbon emissions by purchasing carbon credits for projects that are designed to remove, avoid or reduce emissions. Catherine went on to note that many of the wells that were plugged decades ago need to be resealed as well. Here she is again.

Catherine Flax

Some of these wells were "plugged" 50 years ago. And the stuff that they find down in these wells, I mean, it's really like old boots and chicken wire kind of situation, just like stuff that people just put down there, and that's not going to work in terms of creating a seal that's actually going to abate the methane.

Catherine Flax

So there's actually a quality issue here. And so having a company that is very, very focused on making sure that we're up to speed on what the newest technologies are around plugging and making sure that we can then validate that what we're doing is going to not then bounce back on these oil companies. If they're paying us to plug the well, it needs to be plugged. So that's one thing. We do work with the states.

Catherine Flax

But then with carbon credits, that's a really newer evolving business. But what we're finding is that what resonates with people is, first of all, that quality of knowing if I'm plugging the well, we're monitoring it properly so that we know that it's not going to start leaking again. But also, I do think that the idea or the concept that we're actually quite literally cleaning up at the source is something that resonates with people who are interested in buying carbon credits.

Esther Whieldon

Much of our focus in today's episode has been on methane emissions. Talal Debs noted that these sites pose other environmental and safety concerns as well, including, as you'll hear him mention from NGLs that stands for natural gas liquids. NGLs are hydrocarbons such as ethane, propane, and butane that are extracted along with natural gas. Okay. Here's Talal.

Talal Debs

It's not just methane emissions that really is the full spectrum potential risk to the environment and to the economy from this orphan well population includes hydrocarbon leaks into the water table. It includes liquids NGLs and crude, hydrocarbons going into the surface and associated soil. And then finally, these are volatile substances. And believe it or not, they do explode, and that's few and far between, relatively infrequent, but the risk that improperly shut down site may explode really limits the ability to safely reuse this real estate for any purpose really for -- whether it's national forest or whether it's being redeveloped for homes.

Talal Debs

So it's complex, and there's all available resources to tackle the problem. So what we do is what differentiates us from some of our other folks who are working in the space I wouldn't say competitors because, frankly, it's such a big problem and opportunity that everyone is sort of running at this in their own way. But our way is we own all of our rigs, crews, cementing, wireline, all of our data acquisition. It's all in-house. We're sort of fully integrated. And as a result, we can really control our costs over time. And we're unique in that regard. We're the only pure-play business that has all the capabilities to do every piece of the contracting that's involved in a site remediation inside our own walls.

Esther Whieldon

So I love visuals, and I want you to paint me a picture of the types of wells that you see, kind of what does the situation look like when you arrive often?

Talal Debs

It varies tremendously. I'll paint a couple of pictures. The first orphan well that we cleaned up in the state of New York, it's a gas well. It was about 200 yards away from the pickup window of Tim Hortons fast food restaurant, and you could smell the gas when you were picking up your food. And it was enough natural gas to be really clearly a nuisance to the whole area, not just an adder to greenhouse gas emissions and global warming.

Talal Debs

And so at the back of the parking lot, if you'd walked into the grass, you would have seen essentially a wellhead, some old piping sticking up with a corroded hole in the side of it and methane gas pouring out. Now sometimes these sites, campers, you find them in the woods, might even light them on fire. They're very material gas spills. Now that's one picture.

Talal Debs

Another picture might be we toured a ranch recently in Texas. And the ranch owner was trying to figure out what to do with the 20 or so defunct oil wells on his site. And one of the wells -- these are old pump jacks, if you've driven by them -- I'm actually speaking to you from Long Beach, California.

Talal Debs

And everywhere you look, there are pump jacks going down Huntington Beach, and they're big metal nodding donkey type things. And these pump jacks, we visited one pump jack with the soil is all brown and clearly, there have been spills over the years. And on this ranch, there was a plume of dead trees stretching out about 250 yards down wind of where the site was because they had a methane leak that had been swing for a period of time until they managed to get someone in there to just temporarily stop the leak.

Talal Debs

And it was enough methane -- and methane when it comes out raw like that often comes associated with natural gas liquids. So that's butane, ethane, propane, and other sorts of naturally occurring co-production chemicals. And that had basically blighted a whole section of the trees on this ranch that were now dead. And so that was a good visual image.

Talal Debs

And then a third thing to remind you is that, thankfully, we have had a very good safety record. These sites are very dangerous. They sometimes have H2S, which is a hydrogen sulfide, which is deadly in very, very small amounts. Every now and then you'll hear people dying because they came too close to a well site that had what's called sour gas, H2S. And then just even working around the sites, People -- these are unsafe, hazardous conditions. People die when trying to clean them up. And that's happened in numerous states over recent years. Thankfully, not on any of our sites. So they are dirty and dangerous industrial sites.

Esther Whieldon

Yes. You're painting a pretty vivid picture there for sure. How big are the pipes themselves?

Talal Debs

It varies a lot. And in fact, you can have very deep wells that go down 12,000, 15,000 feet. The older wells that we deal with are almost all vertical because the horizontal drilling revolution is a relatively recent phenomenon. So they may go down very deep and be a quite substantial thick casing with multiple annular rings. In other words, not just one pipe, but lots of pipes within pipes or they could be something that looks pretty innocuous and is pretty shallow and just it looks like some sort of plumbing pipe that you might see around a home.

Talal Debs

So there's quite a big dispersion. There are, by the way, a lot of wells that were never registered. So the 3.7 million number that the EPA puts out, I assume includes some assumptions for undocumented wells, and we run across these all the time. It's a real nuisance. We've done work now for some major corporate names in the area of sort of these large warehouse centers that are being constructed across the country. They'll be building a warehouse and discover there's a well or two on what they thought was an empty lot. And so we have to go and deal with it.

Talal Debs

And even if it's a small little well that comes out, if you don't properly seal it, what ends up happening is and what shortcuts can be taken and have been taken in the past. And if you're unlucky, the seal on your improperly sealed well is going to be going to crack and then you're going to get methane leaking up into your building. And this can lead to explosions and other unsafe environments. And so we are called in on a regular basis by developers who are building new sites who come across one of these things that wasn't on the map.

Esther Whieldon

Interesting. So what does it take to plug and seal them?

Talal Debs

Sure. The art and science plugging these wells has evolved over time. In the bat old days or in some of the places where people are still doing it this way, it's as simple as a relatively low-tech cement plug. You put cement down the hole, you seal it, you cut the casing near or at the surface and hey, presto, there's no well there anymore. The problem is those tend to start leaking. And if you Google the word zombie well, you'll find that a lot of those sort of inadequately remediated wells have reopened. And you have whole ranches now and whole farms that are blighted with liquid hydrocarbon and gas sort of welling up from underground because the so-called remediated wells were not done properly.

Talal Debs

So what we do and what is currently the accepted state-of-the-art is we'll do a redundant, a backup plug, if you like. We'll do one plug down near the producing zone. We'll confirm that is working, and then we will come up the pipe some ways, and we will then put a secondary plug in place, as an extra layer of protection. And then we will go down and perforate, which is a nice word for using explosives, but cut the casing and remove enough casing far enough away from the surface where you could theoretically dig a foundation and build a building there and not run into the casing, which happens if people have not cut away enough casing.

Talal Debs

And it also protects the water table in addition to what I described as kind of the way that we do it, and it is standard with sort of best practices today. We're adding new technologies. We're looking at ways to put different kinds of media down hole between the plugs that would further stabilize the two plugs and also absorb stray amounts of corrosive gases and hydrocarbons so that the whole structure is a lot more stable and free from corrosion and unlikely to leak.

Talal Debs

We've got a tool that we're investing in where we actually can reduce some of the flows that can come up through alternative means outside the piping. And these are relatively minor flows. But for us, since it's what we do, we can afford and we make it a priority to invest in new and better ways to plug these wells.

Esther Whieldon

I'd like to return to XMC strategies. What makes methane emissions and orphan well abatement a valuable topic or a valuable area for a financial investor?

Talal Debs

Sure. That goes back to the beginning of XMC has a little bit of history of private equity. Private equity as a phenomenon kind of started in the '80s. What we've known of as private equity through our professional lives has been really the leverage buyout version of private equity in one way, shape or form, which is you buy a company, you optimize it, you make its results better and you use some degree of leverage, financial leverage and debt and hedging to achieve that and to maximize your returns for your private investors.

Talal Debs

And what we realized in 2020 was that the private equity cycle was at the end of a cycle for energy. The idea of buying an oilfield, which is a very typical way that energy private equity has been doing their business for many years. If you buy an oilfield and you use leverage and all you're doing is optimizing the oilfield, at the end of the fund life, you're going to be selling an oilfield that's more depleted and has a lot more environmental risk when you got it.

Talal Debs

And actually, the whole proposition doesn't make sense unless you're adding oil and gas resources to the private equity vehicle. And what we realized was whether it happens now or whether it happens in 5 years, or 10 years that as alternative forms of energy make a bigger and bigger part of the energy mix, the sort of assumption that we're always going to be drilling for oil and gas, no matter what at any price isn't going to hold. And so we said, well, how can we buy an oilfield and actually make money without making some assumptions that we don't want to make that the energy mix is not going to change because we are in the midst of an energy transition.

Talal Debs

So we came up with the concept at XMC that we were an energy transformation fund. not an energy transition fund. The active sort of implication of transformation as compared to transition, it ties with a concept we've described in reference to Zefiro Methane, which is active sustainability. It's our way of sort of trying to -- you could say, rebrand ESG, but really trying to differentiate what we do from what I call tick-the-box ESG. And what we're trying to do is literally change the shape of the assets we buy.

Talal Debs

And so the first order of business when you look at a heritage hydrocarbon asset and by that, I mean an old oil and gas field or an old midstream asset, but let's stick with oil and gas is you've got a bunch of wells that you have to clean up someday. And I think it's going to be increasingly difficult for responsible investors to expect that the well plugging is going to be someone else's problem. So we set about with Zefiro and said, well, look, how can we build a business that's profitable that also does this thing that needs to be done, which is clean up these oil wells? And that's where we got focused on the environmental damage that's already being caused. And so we sort of have continued with our fund to build a toolkit.

Talal Debs

Our second company that is out there publicly is Gradient Geothermal, which is a variation on the theme. We learned that a large number of these old oil and gas properties have a lot of hot water in them. So when the oil comes out of the ground, it comes mixed in a slurry with all sorts of other things in there, often brine and other contaminants. But that mixture of produced fluid is actually really hot. It's so hot that a lot of times oil and gas producers have to employ essentially air conditioners, they call them chillers that run diesel engines to cool the fluid column before they can take the fluid through the separating devices that are needed to strip out the oil.

Talal Debs

So we thought, why don't we try and extract energy from that fluid column. And so Gradient Geothermal is a geothermal business that we think can be producing up to 10 gigawatts of renewable electricity, very safe baseload geothermal without ever having to drill a geothermal well because we're just repurposing old oil and gas infrastructure. But you can see that this comes from a private equity framework that is sort of, I think, more the way private equity is going to be looking in the coming decades, which is you're buying an energy asset, especially for energy because it's a transforming industry.

Talal Debs

You buy an asset with a mind towards, well, how are you going to decompose the financial assets and financial liabilities of the company you're buying into things you can deal with. And right now, the toolkit doesn't exist. There wasn't a company I could have called 3 years ago to tell me what I could do with plugging wells. So we created it.

Talal Debs

There wasn't a company that I could have called 3 years ago that had patented proven technology to extract geothermal energy from fluid columns. So we had the privilege of being able to create it. We have a couple of other new platform companies that are coming out in our second fund. And the concept, we call it at XMC Full Spectrum Energy Investment.

Talal Debs

And the idea is we need energy. Let's get out of the mode of sort of redlining certain types of energy. Let's take all the energy that we can get economically, but make it as clean as possible with a mind towards what are we going to do with the mass afterwards. And if we can do that, then sort of we're capturing the full spectrum of opportunity without ignoring the full spectrum of risks.

Esther Whieldon

Is this a growing trend for private equity? Or is this just sort of in the starting stages? Obviously, you guys have been doing this for a few years now.

Talal Debs

We still are the only company that I know of that tried to make the point that we're an energy transformation business. And I'm not aware of anyone else coming out with the statement that, hey, we really need to remake the private equity industry as far as it applies to energy in particular. I think a lot of people do know this, though. And when we talk to them, they say, that makes a ton of sense because to attract capital to these problems, what's been happening is you have people who are still comfortable with traditional energy investing that doesn't deal with the environmental side.

Talal Debs

And they make a certain return. It tends to be through the cycle, a little more than 10% is what they tend to make in traditional energy, private equity, which, frankly, for all the risks, doesn't feel like a great return, which is maybe why funds flow has really slowed down to traditional private equity. And then you've got people who are saying, let's invest in the new generation of energy. So they're just focused on wind farms, solar farms, all things renewable. They're doing great things. They're bringing down the costs. and that industry -- but those investment returns really are not very exciting either. There's often single-digit type returns.

Talal Debs

And our view is like we've got to find a way to be making high risk-adjusted returns if we want to attract capital at scale to be able to pay for this energy transformation. And so while I think we have obviously competitors who are really good at certain parts of it, so traditional energy, private equity or the true renewable energy, wind farms and solar farms, there's no one that we know of who is really trying to do what we're trying to do.

Esther Whieldon

Talal also talked a bit about how Zefiro is approaching carbon markets to finance plugging orphan wells to reduce methane emissions. I asked him, how does he see the market for this type of project evolving going forward?

Talal Debs

So we built our initial models based on the historical comparables to methane reduction contracts. I don't think it's any secret that these are low single-digit per ton dollar prices. So I think $4, $5 a ton was the nearest comparable and there are methane reduction contracts either that have been on the market for a while that surrounding landfill gas or surrounding midstream leak repair. And those comparables tended to be in that sort of not so high single-digit dollar price. And so our challenge was, well, look, can we build a cost base where we can make some money delivering volumes at those prices? And the answer is, yes, we can.

Talal Debs

But our bet was always that as the buyer market for methane reduction contracts begins to realize that there are some real nice features about these contracts. They're very easy to understand. It's very additional, as I mentioned before. It's very provable. All the work is being done right here in North America. So it's sort of American-made carbon credits, it's not just a point of national pride, but if you're worried about -- if you as the buyer want to verify, did the site get cleaned up, you can drive out and look at it. It's not sitting on the other side of the world. It's a lot more sort of easy to verify.

Talal Debs

And then these carbon credits, there's just -- there's hundreds of millions of tons of -- probably more than that of emission reductions that can be achieved through just this one type of contract. And that's a big issue for buyers of carbon credits. Every time they look at a new type of contract, say, landfill gas or forestry or what have you, they have to spend a lot of time diligencing that contract and that operator.

Talal Debs

And so our bet was, look, let's let people understand this is a highly verifiable, fungible contract. If you buy a ton of reduction from us this year and you want to buy one from us in 5 years, it's going to be the same thing. We're cleaning up a well. And that fungibility, we figured would start to really appreciate the price, and we are seeing that. We're seeing much higher prices in the market. Obviously, we can't talk about current market prices, but we have designed ourselves to be the low-cost wholesale producer at prices that would have been backward compatible to the old market with the view that it's very likely that the contract type is going to actually start to really attract attention from buyers, and we're starting to see that.

Esther Whieldon

Well, is there anything we didn't get to that you wanted to mention?

Talal Debs

I think that the main point I'd like to make is it is a really exciting time to be in these markets. And as you've noticed, we really are trying to exist in the no man's land, if you like, or this sort of demilitarized zone between what has been considered traditional energy investing and ESG investing, which never the twin shall meet in a lot of people's minds. And that's not been our bent. Our bent has been the opportunity set is connecting the markets and learning how to apply this sort of full spectrum approach to solving the problems in real life.

Talal Debs

And so the phrase we use active sustainability is meant to sort of trigger in people's minds that, look, this is not the kind of the ESG investing of yesteryear was let's tick a box and make sure we're not doing something bad, right? We're not investing in you name it, some type of investment that the investor base deems as irresponsible and very likely is. But that, at the end of the day is a cost-increasing approach and an opportunity limiting approach.

Talal Debs

What we're trying to do is actually create businesses that tackle big problems that we can point at, hey, we're solving this problem. It's not that we're avoiding these other things. We're solving this problem and your money is going to that. And we've been able to achieve top quartile type returns, remarkably good returns that outperform traditional energy private equity and traditional renewable energy. And it's because we're unlocking sort of this new avenue of capital. And that's what we're really excited about, and it's a huge opportunity.

Talal Debs

And so I love the way that you've renamed your podcast, all things sustainable, because we're sort of of the same spirit, like sustainability has a lot of meanings. And it doesn't just have to have a narrow meaning that maybe came from the past of ESG investing, but it's all about sort of deploying capital for sustainable solutions. sometimes in a very simple linguistic sense of can it keep working? Will I get my money back? Will this look better in 8 years? And if that works, I think we can draw so much more capital.

Talal Debs

There's so much capital standing on the sidelines that doesn't know where to go, right? It doesn't want the old bifurcated world. And I think that this approach you're taking is analogous in some ways. And I think the approach we're taking is just very realistic. And I'm hoping we can get investors to increasingly get that point.

Esther Whieldon

So as we heard today, curbing methane emissions at abandoned oil and gas wells is complex. We heard about the financial, environmental and safety risks these wells pose and how Zefiro Methane and private equity firm XMC are looking to leverage carbon markets to finance plugging orphan wells.

Lindsey Hall

What we heard today about how these companies are trying to change the shape of energy assets to make them have a more sustainable future, that also fits in with another theme we've heard in the past on this podcast, which is we need all available solutions and technologies for the energy transition to be successful. And please stay tuned as next week, we'll be back with another topic I'm hearing about increasingly, physical climate risk and insurance. Thanks for tuning into this episode of things. If you like what you heard, please subscribe, share and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.

Copyright ©2025 by S&P Global 

This piece was published by S&P Global Sustainable1, a part of S&P Global.    

DISCLAIMER 

By accessing this Podcast, I acknowledge that S&P GLOBAL makes no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this Podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice. Unless specifically stated otherwise, S&P GLOBAL does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned in this Podcast, and information from this Podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third party materials or content of any third party site referenced in this Podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of S&P GLOBAL. S&P GLOBAL assumes no responsibility or liability for the accuracy or completeness of the content contained in third party materials or on third party sites referenced in this Podcast or the compliance with applicable laws of such materials and/or links referenced herein. Moreover, S&P GLOBAL makes no warranty that this Podcast, or the server that makes it available, is free of viruses, worms, or other elements or codes that manifest contaminating or destructive properties. 

S&P GLOBAL EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.