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Lindsey Hall: Hi. I'm Lindsey Hall, Head of Thought Leadership at S&P Global Sustainable1.

Esther Whieldon: And I'm Esther Whieldon a senior writer on the Sustainable1 thought leadership team.

Lindsey Hall: Welcome to ESG Insider, an S&P Global podcast where Esther and I take you inside the environmental, social and governance issues that are shaping the rapidly evolving sustainability landscape.

Esther Whieldon: Last week, we brought you an episode about food at a time when many of us are thinking about holiday meals and baking. We use this as a jumping off point to explore the question, how do you make food system sustainable?

Lindsey Hall: Well, in today's episode, this final episode of 2024, we're looking at another topic on many listeners' minds this holiday season, and that is travel. What about you, Esther? Are you traveling anywhere?

Esther Whieldon: Luckily, both my family and my in-laws are local, so we are going to be staying in the Washington, D.C. area this Christmas. How about you?

Lindsey Hall: I'll also be home for the holidays. But as you know, I did recently go on a big work trip for COP29, the UN's annual climate change conference in Baku, Azerbaijan. And this is the first time a climate conference of the parties has included a thematic day focused on tourism. Tourism is a big driver for many economies. It's also a big driver of emissions.

As we'll hear in today's episode, greenhouse gas emissions from the tourism sector have been estimated to represent 8% of global emissions, and that number is only expected to rise. This is something I think about a lot as both a sustainability professional and also just as a person who loves to travel, how do you balance your trips with their impact on climate.

To learn more about this, I sat down on the sidelines of COP29 with Sally Davey. Sally is the Chief Executive at Travalyst, that's a nonprofit that convenes a global coalition of some of the biggest names in travel and technology.

Esther Whieldon: Now Lindsey, I understand this interview is a little different than normal.

Lindsey Hall: Yes. I would say the conversation itself, very insightful. But when I sat down with Sally, it was one of the weirdest things I've ever experienced. Sally and I were in the green zone, the section of COP gatherings that's open to all. And I just started recording when a man approached our table. He was in the middle of a video call with another man and he interrupted Sally and I to show us to the man on the phone.

Esther Whieldon: Wait, what?

Lindsey Hall: He's just like he wanted to show the man on the phone these two women that he was encountering. It was bizarre. And we didn't speak the same language. So first, I just smiled and politely said, hello, hoping he'd move on. But he didn't and instead kept on getting closer and closer and more and more intrusive until he had his arm tightly around me and his cheek pressed up against mine.

Esther Whieldon: Honestly, I don't know what I would have done in that situation.

Lindsey Hall: Well, I didn't know what to do either. And I share the story just because I wonder how many other women in professional settings deal with the same kind of distraction when you're just trying to get the job done. Certainly wasn't the worst harassment I've dealt with in public, but it still left me shaken.

And somewhat ironically, this happened just before COP29's thematic day focused on gender equality. Luckily, Sally was a champ, and we rolled right on with the interview after this interruption. So here is our conversation.

So the last time I saw you, you were speaking at Climate Week NYC at an event where you were sharing the stage with Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex in celebrating Travalyst's 5-year anniversary. Now we're sitting down in Baku, other side of the world and on the sidelines of COP29. So first of all, thank you for making the time to speak with me.

Sally Davey: It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Lindsey Hall: Yes. And it's the perfect day to be talking to you specifically because this marks the first time a COP gathering has had a thematic day focused on tourism. So let's start with an easy one. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell them about your organization, please?

Sally Davey: I'd be delighted. I'm Sally Davey. I'm the Chief Executive at Travalyst, which is an independent not-for-profit, which, as you said, was founded by Prince Harry 5 years ago. He has worked in conservation and development initiatives for two decades or longer now and has seen time and again the huge impact that travel and tourism has on this world.

As a sector, it is accountable for 10% of global GDP and about 1 in 10 jobs. It's also accountable for 8.8% of global emissions, and that number is rising. But at the local level, travel and tourism also has significant impacts, both positive but often negative, huge opportunities in creating livelihoods, especially for minority groups, women, in particular, very much net employers in tourism.

And I think had seen that when tourism is done well and done right, it can unlock so much opportunity. It can drive conservation of local ecosystems and assets in a way that no other sector really can. It can drive economic opportunity. It can drive cultural awareness and understanding. But when done badly, it can be really extractive and really damaging.

So the Duke was keen to see how he could leverage his position and his interest to help support the industry and essentially making sustainable travel the only way to travel and operate. So we developed a theory of change and looked at this entire system and all the different levers within it and what would be required to make that happen.

And everything came back to this most important insight that's clear, consistent and compliant data at scale is the most vital precondition for all of this change. It's the missing piece of this huge puzzle. And so the Duke said, okay, if that's what needs to happen to lead to this downstream change or this kind of change actually on the ground in destinations, then that's what we'll do.

So we brought together a coalition of leading global travel and technology brands and platforms with whom we said, right, we want you to work together for the first time pre-competitively. These are big global brands that often compete with each other. It's sort of Google and Skyscanner, Booking.com, Expedia, Mastercard and Visa, all around the same table together, collaborating for the greater good.

And we said, okay, what we want you to do is align on the way that you collect and distribute sustainability data so that consumers coming to any one of your platforms see the same information every time. So in our first 5 years, that was our big test. Can we get these people to work together? Can we get them to actually build something?

And can we get them to truly bring the same information to scale? And as you heard at Climate Week in NYC, we were so thrilled to share that through our work in aviation, we have aligned the sector on a single model and approach for bringing aviation emissions data to consumers.

So that means that now as a traveler, when I go to any one of those platforms to book a flight, I see not only information on the emissions potential impact of my flight and also where I can be making a different and potentially better choice, I'm seeing the same information, whether I'm going to one of those OTAs or to a search platform or through one of my corporate travel booking tools, the same information presented clearly and consistently every single time I book.

And that is what Travalyst is here to do, bring that reliable information to the mainstream to raise awareness empower travelers to be a part of the change and to be making better choices and then making sure that through that data, we can start to get a clearer picture of the delta from where we are today and where we need to be.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. Great. You're definitely speaking by language with the clear and consistent data. So talk to me about what brings you, what brings Travalyst to Baku and what are some of the conversations that you're having here at COP29?

Sally Davey: Yes. You mentioned at the start that this is a really significant COP. It's the first one to have a thematic day on tourism. And so we really had to make sure that we were here. I would say I came in maybe not skeptical, but with questions. I've been to COPs before, and I've seen the process. And I was really keen to see whether this presidency would really support tourism being around the table, claiming its role and responsibility as an absolutely vital sector in mitigation and adaptation that it's always left out.

It's always ignored. It's always in the background. And I have been genuinely impressed. The day-to-day has been so well organized. It has involved a very wide number of stakeholders across public, private sector, not-for-profits, academia. And I think the most important point is that the content has been really action-oriented. I've been in this space for a couple of decades now. And again, this topic of sustainability and tourism and sustainable tourism reporting has always been on the fringes. It's always been very niche.

And we've been really working hard to bring that into the mainstream conversation as well. And so to see this thematic tourism day at COP, not only happening, but happening well and seeing good conversations happening around how do we collaborate like never before, really taking seriously the urgency. 2030 is around the corner, and we have a mountain to climb to get there.

It is still doable, but we need all hands on deck and all rowing in the same direction without wanting to mix my metaphors. And we have seen that. And I would say I am surprised and delighted by the degree of urgency, commitment and accountability.

People are not just talking about what they're going to do. They're talking about what they're doing, how they're going to do it better, how they're going to report against that and how they're going to share best practice and learnings, including the difficult stuff so that we can all accelerate and improve together.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. Great. Can you take me a little behind the scenes? Like what are some of those conversations that you found especially impactful or promising here at COP?

Sally Davey: So a big one that we came to interesting is alignment of global methodologies. So we know if we take it back to the consumer view, and again, we think as much about business travelers who have a huge footprint, just as much as we do leisure travelers. When we think about how we get the information to them, it always starts with aligning the data and the methodologies. And we know that consumers are frustrated by fragmentation.

Firstly, the information isn't always presented clearly, and it's not always the same information. And when especially corporate travelers saying, I really need to be making better choices. I have a policy to adhere to, I have targets to hit. I need to firstly have the data available at scale, which that hasn't been available until now. And I need to know that it is consistent and credible. And if I book with different channels, it will be the same information.

So that all comes back at the top of the funnel to those aligned methodologies, those tools, how we calculate the impact of a particular product or a particular element of that product. Now Travalyst obviously has done a huge amount in the private sector to drive alignment behind certain tools.

And in fact, we're really excited to announce today that Travalyst has partnered up with the World Sustainable Hospitality Alliance to support the next phase and next generation of their hotel carbon measurement tool. So this is essentially the leading tool globally for hotels calculating their carbon footprint.

And it's done a huge amount over the last few years to again bring this into the mainstream, but it still hasn't managed to really accelerate into that wider mainstream space. That's where Travalyst is coming in to help support the development of the tool and then the distribution of it. And this is really what COP and the Baku declaration has been about. The Baku declaration is all about enhanced action on climate.

So how do we take what's already out there and get it to the next level of scale through more collaboration and better collaboration, not just collaboration within sector, but cross sector. So how can we take the data, for example, that private sector is aggregating and amassing and provide it back to policymakers.

We're really at Travalyst, we're really excited to see some of the policy developments in Europe and in Brazil and in so many jurisdictions, of course, in North America and the IRA. And Travalyst is looking at how can we, as a private sector support those policy outcomes.

How can we provide data back to those policymakers to see whether those policies are on track to support those outcomes and being successful and to make sure that, again, together, we're moving the industry forward and certainly that we are not introducing restrictive requirements that send the industry and our sector backwards.

So that's what's been really happening behind the scenes and those really quite meaty discussions on how is it again, we will come around the same table, leave egos and competitive interest at the door and align behind the same tools, the same methodologies and really get those out there at scale to everybody is taking the same approach and taking responsibility for that becoming the only way to operate and travel.

Lindsey Hall: I'm fascinated by this question of how do you actually make that happen in practice? Like how do you get these competitors or people who haven't worked together before to effectively collaborate. I think it's such an interesting question with implications way beyond the travel and tourism industry, but what have you found to be successful?

Sally Davey: So this is a bit of a cliche, but it has been a journey. When we started out, honestly, I will tell you truthfully, everybody thought we were crazy, and they told us so. And Prince Harry, the Duke of Sussex likes to tell this story that when we started out, everybody said, you'll never do this. This will never happen. The online travel sector, in particular, is fiercely competitive. And these folks don't work together. And even if they did, they're not interested in sustainability.

And even if they were, they won't be able to get the data to the mainstream. And so it's been really amazing to celebrate our fifth anniversary at Climate Week in New York and say, actually, in the first 5 years alone, we've proven out all of those points. Now how that happened, it was not a simple process for any of us. We had to have really clear terms of engagement. Travalyst and its coalition operates as a pre-competitive coalition.

So there are really clear terms of engagement. You come to the table and you leave your commercial considerations at the door. That's really vital, right? Because, again, when you're bringing competitors together, you have to be really rigorous in your antitrust governance and structure and make sure that we are operating in a really rigorous manner. Then we had to make sure that there were table stakes.

You're not just coming here to talk or to not act. When you come into Travalyst, it is to play a role. So everybody has a defined role and defined area of expertise. And we expect those partners to bring that expertise to contribute as well as to benefit from the expertise of others. Then, of course, we have our day-to-day operations. And I think for some of our partners, I think they've known other coalitions, they've known other setups.

And I think they were expecting something similar from Travalyst. And I'm very proud that they have stuck with us because we have asked a lot of them. We have weekly working groups. So you have product and engineering teams from Google, from the OTAs, from the global distribution systems who are working together on a weekly basis, again, with their competitors to say, okay, how is it that we are all going to make sure that this information gets to the mainstream? How are we going to do that in our setting?

How is this relevant to our particular consumer? So that's not a minor resource and demand. That is significant commitment. And to stay the course as our founding partners have done over 5 years is really impressive. So I think having those clear principles from the start that were absolutely unmovable. And within that was Travalyst's neutral governance. We are not a member body. We are not accountable to any of those companies and those brands.

We are accountable solely to the planet. And that has sometimes been difficult for some of those folks because there is so often a trade-off between corporate interest and doing things differently and challenging the system. But Travalyst has always been able to come back to our mandate and to our goals and the outcomes that we really need to drive. And I think there is this mutual respect we really see the power of technology and technology harnessed in this way can drive great change.

And I think the fact that we have been able to harness that in this collective pre-competitive way and Travalyst has always stayed true to its mission has meant that when there have been those inevitable bumps on the road where the road maps got in a direction that one partner would prefer not to or one partner has had a challenge or whatever it might be, we've weathered every single one of those bumps in the road, and they've made us stronger in the long term.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. It sounds like from what you said so far that you think Baku and COP29 has been a success. Any tangible outcomes that you can point to that would drive that?

Sally Davey: I think the fact that the World Sustainable Hospitality Alliance and Travalyst have agreed this week to progress the work on the world's leading hotel carbon measurement tool is significant. I think you'll see that making great waves in the travel sector where suddenly the same degree of scale that we've achieved in aviation emissions we'll be able to achieve the hospitality sector. And that is huge because that is the first step in a massive opportunity.

Now hotels are based in destinations and destinations are what our industry relies on, but also that's where local communities are living, the people who are welcoming tourists who are providing local services, who are part of that supply chain, living in the destination with their families and with their local businesses and their communities. And tourism plays a massive role in the outcomes for those people and for the places that those hotels operate in.

So as we start to align that [candidation] and get it out there to scale, we can start to accelerate work on social indicators and metrics as well and again, driving that consistency. So I think we're seeing real ambition here. But yes, I would say the acceleration of the hotel carbon measurement tool is massive.

The Baku declaration, the enhanced action on climate from the tourism sector, I think, is handing this big baton to Brazil next year. We have just seen and felt this massive energy here. I think where lots of other folks are maybe feeling a bit pessimistic, maybe at the global level, there is a little bit of disengagement from climate in some areas.

What's interesting for tourism was we're actually seeing kind of a building of momentum and energy and commitment. So I think you'll start to see certain governments and jurisdictions becoming more active. And I think that's the case for Brazil. I think they're very ambitious. I think they've already made great strides in their sustainability regulation and also how they work with private sector and most importantly, with communities.

So I think you'll see some really exciting stuff next year at COP30. I think, yes, in the private sector, we're going to see another wave of collaboration, again, in not only doing things in the same way, but also holding ourselves and each other to account and also sharing best practice and learnings of where things are going wrong.

We see folks like Air New Zealand holding their hands up and saying, we made a net zero commitment. And right now, we have to be honest, we can't hit that. But here's what we need to see changing and here's the support we need to still find a way to net zero. So it's that sort of honesty and accountability that we're also hearing coming out of this COP that we have never heard before.

Lindsey Hall: We just heard Sally mention the Baku declaration, and this is the COP29 declaration on enhanced climate action and tourism. This initiative was launched in partnership with UN Tourism, and it aims to drive climate action within the global tourism sector. And Sally said this hands the baton to Brazil, which will host COP30 in 2025. That Baku declaration aims to build on a previous Glasgow declaration on climate action and tourism, which came out of COP26 in Scotland. Here's Sally explaining a bit more about that.

Sally Davey: So the Glasgow declaration was obviously set back in Glasgow 4 years ago and really was about calling the industry to declare a climate emergency and set climate action plans against which we report. Travalyst was a founding signatory very proudly. We do have a climate action plan that we are fully accountable to and committed to, and we do report against it every year.

And it's fantastic to see UN Tourism today reporting on how signatories are progressing and again, sharing best practice and learnings. For me, the most exciting part was when the Executive Director of UN Tourism stood up and said, and also for those people who have signed up and who have not committed and completed the requirements, we are also removing you. And that is quite a significant step to take.

But I think it's a really vital one for accountability to say, we said that these were the requirements. We expect everybody to live up to this. We know it is feasible and possible. We don't accept excuses. Everybody is driving this industry forward. We are all accountable to that. I was very impressed.

So I think we'll see, again, we hope, another wave of commitment to Glasgow, but not just assigning to actually reporting against this climate action plans because that has power to really shift this sector as well as then at those particular industry-level tools, which, again, I think we'll see a lot more alignment with, too.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. That's all really helpful to understand the sort of landscape for travel and tourism. You mentioned that there hadn't been much momentum previously and you are seeing that momentum now. Any ideas on why that might have changed? What might have been the hurdle or the blocker previously?

Sally Davey: I guess I should actually characterize this slightly differently. There has always been masses of momentum in tourism. So 20 years ago, when I started out, I was working mainly at the grassroots and brought together this global network of entrepreneurs working at the local destination level in amazing sustainable tourism businesses and nonprofits.

And we scaled to sort of something like 15,000 entrepreneurs worldwide, and we would come together at these big industry events. And we called ourselves the fringe responsible tourism network because we were never part of the mainstream agenda or discussion. We were actively shut out of those. So we had to have our own events on the edge, in the fringes.

So there was always this really big energy and momentum, but it never really found access to the main decision-making table, and that's what has changed. And there has been huge investment over the years, both from private sector at all levels, especially in the last 3 or 4 years, we've just seen this real step change in awareness of the role that travel and tourism plays and also our vulnerability Tourism relies on destinations.

And so if we are not protecting people in places, we have no places to visit. And so I think now there is that awareness of the risk and the vulnerability and people are stepping up at all levels. And again, we know that policy action is so powerful here. Under the European Green Deal, there's some major regulation here and coming that really impacts travel and tourism, be that on the transport side or the consumer side or the reporting side.

All of these are catalytic elements of the system. So there's no one thing. I think there's always been passion, energy and momentum because travel is a beautiful industry. It inspires people. I've yet to meet somebody who tells me they don't love to travel and they haven't had wonderful inspirational travel experiences. I think it's the fact that there has been a lack of joined-up thinking and conversation that has been really missing from these global forums. So now having a tourism thematic day here at COP, I think that changes everything.

Lindsey Hall: So today, we heard Sally say that when tourism is done poorly, it can be really damaging for the environment and for communities. And in some instances, as we heard, traveling can land you in some pretty uncomfortable situations. But when it's done right, tourism can unlock economic opportunity, it can drive conservation of local ecosystems and assets, and it can lead to cultural awareness and understanding.

Esther Whieldon: We also heard from Sally about the positive momentum that came out of COP29. She talked about how data can empower travelers to make sustainable choices. And it's also nice to hear the year end on a high note, hearing about how Travalyst has found a way to get competitors working together toward a common goal. This is something we'll continue to track in 2025. So we hope you'll join us.

Lindsey Hall: And also I just want to end with a sincere thank you to all of our listeners and guests who have made up our podcast community throughout 2024. Happy New Year, Esther.

Esther Whieldon: Happy New Year, Lindsey.

Lindsey Hall: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of ESG Insider. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe, share and leave us a review wherever you get your podcast.

Esther Whieldon:: And a special thanks to our agency partner, The 199. See you next time.

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