Transcript provided by Kensho.

Esther Whieldon: And I'm Esther Whieldon, a senior writer on the Sustainable1 Thought Leadership team.

Lindsey Hall: Welcome to ESG Insider, an S&P Global podcast where Esther and I take you inside the environmental, social and governance issues that are shaping the rapidly evolving sustainability landscape.

Esther Whieldon: Over the past 2 years, we brought you a recurring series of this podcast that we call Women in Leadership. Over the course of a dozen episodes, we talk to women CEOs and leaders from around the world and across industries. Diversity and leadership has been a focus for many stakeholders in the corporate world in recent years, but women still hold a relatively low share of corporate leadership roles and will include a link in our show to research we published on this topic. In this series, we've sought to go beyond the data by interviewing women leaders about their career paths and personal experience.

Lindsey Hall: So far in our 2024 series, we've heard perspectives from the U.S., Europe and Asia and from women leading companies in community banking, consulting and consumer goods. And I'm really excited to be closing out the year with an interview with a leader from the public sector, Dr. Vanessa Chan.

Vanessa is the Chief Commercialization Officer at the U.S. Department of Energy and the Director of the Office of Technology Transitions, otherwise known as OTT. She reports to Jennifer Granholm, the U.S. Secretary of Energy.

Vanessa is responsible for driving private sector uptake of clean energy technologies as a steward of commercialization activities across the DOE, 17 national laboratories and the department's other research and production facilities across the country.

She was also just named to the TIME 100 Climate list of the 100 most influential climate leaders for 2024. In the interview, she talks about the unlikely path that led her to this role, the future of the energy transition and her advice for people earlier in their careers. First up, she talks to me about the outlook for nuclear in the energy transition. This is a topic I'm hearing about more and more lately. Okay. Here's Vanessa.

Vanessa Chan: I think nuclear is absolutely part of the equation because it is a firm clean renewable source of energy. And that's really critical because when you think about other forms of energy such as wind and solar, you have to be able to pair it with something long-duration energy storage in order for it to be functioning when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining.

And so there really has been an effort. And at COP29, there was a large push to triple the nuclear energy footprint by 2050 with a lot of announcements being made on new investment plans, deployment targets and so forth. And this is really critical to us as we think about the role that nuclear plays here in the U.S.

And for those who haven't seen it, we have been doing a lot of work on creating commercialization road maps that you can find at liftoff.energy.gov. And one of the ones that we focused on was advanced nuclear and really the way in which we can try to drive towards nuclear deployment in a very major way here in the U.S.

Lindsey Hall: Vanessa was at the UN's recent COP29 Climate Conference that took place in Baku, Azerbaijan, and I asked her about her key takeaways from this event.

Vanessa Chan: From my perspective, it was really exciting to see how energized everybody is around the clean energy transition and realizing that it is so critical because it will lead to, especially many of the developing countries, the ability to actually have energy.

And so I think that's really the key here is how do we take some of the learnings and the technology we have in the more developed countries and placement of places where they actually do have a challenge even being able to access energy. So I think that is super important.

I also think the idea of how do you get the private sector activated so we actually can deploy technologies and to have the financing actually work is really important because in the end, the private sector is like $23 trillion in the U.S. to go after clean energy, and we only have $500 billion from BIL and IRA. And that same type of ratio exists throughout the world.

So if the private sector isn't bought into the commercialization of these clean energy technologies, it's not going to actually happen. So this is why for us, it is super critical that we take a look at the financing and the way in which the private sector plays an important role here.

Lindsey Hall: We just heard Vanessa mentioned BIL, that's the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the IRA, that's the U.S. Inflation Reduction Act. This is a comprehensive energy and climate law that allocates hundreds of billions of dollars in federal spending to decarbonization efforts.

Vanessa's team is using funds from the $500 billion allocated in the IRA, BIL, plus the CHIPS and Science Act for clean energy and manufacturing innovation to unlock the estimated $23 trillion in U.S. private sector capital poised for investment in new technologies.

The CHIPS and Science Act, by the way, is a U.S. law passed in 2022 that provided funding to boost domestic research and manufacturing of semiconductors in the U.S. In recent episodes of this podcast, we've heard about the big role the private sector played at COP29. And I ask Vanessa about her observations on this front.

Vanessa Chan: There were so many people from the private sector. It was almost like being at New York Climate Week again in terms of the number of people I was running into from the private sector. And everyone was very much talking about financing and thinking about more creative ways that we manage risk.

One of the things that does keep me up at night is with a lot of these clean energy technologies, they are not yet at scale because we're still trying to derisk them. And as a result, people are very much focused on how do you finance the first of a kind.

But the challenge with this is that you can't really get to scale until you've done this quite a few times. And so what we've been trying to do is reframe the conversation around how do you finance the first 10 of a kind, how do you get a portfolio of projects together so that the ecosystem as a whole is getting us to the tipping point where we can get to scaling? And that was really a big focus of the private sector conversations that I was having.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. Are there other things -- other work-related things that keep you up at night as it relates to energy transition?

Vanessa Chan: I think it's really the speed with which people are acting. I think people are waiting for other people to move first. It's a bit like the Squid Games where everyone is first in line to be eighth or ninth. No one is first in line to be first, second or third.

And we don't have really time to wait, which is why I think if we can get people to act together and at scale, we can do this much, much faster. This is one of the reasons why we created the pathways to commercial Liftoff because we wanted to get the entire ecosystem on the same page of what we actually had to get to in order to deploy these technologies.

Lindsey Hall: Great. Thank you. You mentioned the New York Climate Week, and that's where I met you and I had the opportunity to moderate a panel you were speaking on. And while we were chatting backstage, you told me that the best session you've been to that week was on the topic of women and climate. I wonder if I could just dig in a little bit more about what can you tell our listeners about how gender equality has played out in your work and your career?

Vanessa Chan: Well, what's really interesting is I'm a PhD by training and as a result, never had that many women around me. And so what was really interesting for me was that when I joined DOE, the majority of the leaders at Department of Energy, which is a very technical and scientific federal agency, was mainly women. And so even the head of our -- of the Department of Energy, Secretary Granholm is a woman. And I believe 2/3 of our direct reports are women.

And so it was really an interesting culture to come into in terms of being able to drive things and see people who are like you, doing a lot of incredible things towards the clean energy transition. And so that really was something I had not expected coming into federal service that I would be working with so many senior women and really getting some amazing work done together.

Lindsey Hall: Great. Thank you. And if I can dig a little bit more into your own personal experience, what was your sort of path to the role that you're in today?

Vanessa Chan: That's a very Brownian motion, circuitous path. I got a page, as I mentioned, from MIT and was really trying to figure out how do we get impact from the work that's being done in R&D. And so by happenstance, got an offer from McKinsey, stumbled my way into a meet-and-greet and then on a whim interviewed and thought I'd be at McKinsey for 2 years, end up being there for 13 years and really spent all my time focused on technology commercialization.

And then I ended up doing a start-up, doing some angel investing and was also teaching and I'm currently on leave of absence from Penn Engineering. And what was really fascinating was a former client of mine reached out to me in 2017 and said, DOE was hosting a workshop around commercialization and had thrown my name into the mix of someone who should attend.

And I didn't know anything about the government and really didn't have the time to go, but went for half a day for the workshop, spoke a lot about my passions around technology commercialization and someone from that workshop remembered me and threw my name into the hat 3 years later for this role.

So that's where you never know what a partial "yes" might mean in terms of how it might change your career because if I had not attended that one workshop, I would not have been in the role I've been in the past 4 years.

Lindsey Hall: I ask Vanessa a question. We've asked many of the guests on our women in leadership series. What advice would you give to our listeners who are earlier in their careers and just trying to get a foot in the door?

Vanessa Chan: Okay. So the advice I give, first of all, is if you are going to end up settling down with someone and have a partner, make sure you have someone who is supportive of your career and is going to be doing half of the household work, if not more, in order to make sure you're able to climb the career jungle gym with that person.

And so what was really important was for my husband and I, we ended up both kind of taking turns in terms of when our career played the primary role, the other person would be more focused on the family, which was really important. I never felt any guilt from him when I had to focus more on my career during certain periods of my time, and he was the primary caregiver. That is super, super critical.

I would say, secondly, people feel like once they have kids, that is when they should really take a step back on work. And what I would tell people is that up until the age of 6 or 7, there's kind of no bad kids out there, meaning the dynamics of your children with friends is going to be not that complicated.

But when they hit middle school is when you really need to be a little bit more present and in high school is when a lot more stuff is going on, where you've got sports events to go to and so forth.

And so I really think it's important that when kids are really young is to continue climbing that career jungle gym because when they are older and if you are more senior, you have more flexibility to set your schedule and what's important to you. And so I think that is another thing that's super, super important.

And the third thing I would say is spend money way below your means because that will give you flexibility later to use your money in a way that can give you more flexibility. So my husband and I had a house where the 4 of us shared a bathroom up until like 8 or 9 years ago.

And then what happened was we were able to use that money for child care or things like that because that was important to us in order to give us a little more flexibility. And then the last thing I would say is make sure you have a village. My husband unfortunately passed a little less than 3 years ago.

Lindsey Hall: I'm so sorry.

Vanessa Chan: And -- well, we had a great marriage and he was amazing. But I was -- I had a village around me that was able to help support me and to help me continue doing the things I'm doing. And so -- and because we had saved a lot of money, I also was not as concerned as other widows might be in terms of financial stability.

So I think making sure you have a great partner and then making sure you have a village because if your partner's not there, you can continue, I think, is super important. But for everyone out there, you can do it, and it's just -- nothing is ever going to be perfect. So do the best that you can do.

And some of my best moments in terms of my career have come through failures. And so if stuff isn't working, just do a reset, turn to your girlfriends, your partner or whatever and lean on them and then you'll figure something else out. And I think that's the most important thing.

Lindsey Hall: I wish someone had given me this advice at the beginning of my career. I had to learn some of this the hard way, the failure way. I appreciate you giving such practical advice, which I don't hear usually when I ask this question. So thank you very much.

And as you talk about failures, challenges, I guess maybe we can end this conversation on this forward-looking note. We're heading into 2025, a year that is, in many ways, uncertain. What do you think our listeners should understand about the outlook for the energy transition?

Vanessa Chan: I mean life is always uncertain.

Lindsey Hall: That's true.

Vanessa Chan: I don't know how 2025's different than 2022 in terms of uncertainty because you have no idea what's going to happen. And so my therapist always tells me focus on things you can control and don't worry about things that you can't control. And so for me, I'm always like, "Okay. Where are we right now? What are the things that are mattering and how do I navigate things given whatever the conditions are at that point in time?"

So I really don't try to forward-guess anything. I don't think it's productive to do that. I think it's much more important to act on the here and now and thinking about, "Okay. Now that we're here, where are we going to go next?"

So that's what I would give your -- advice to your listeners is don't sit there and forward-think about what might be happening this coming year. As it comes, just get ready to spin or do whatever you need to do to make sure you're ready for the next step.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. Maybe let me ask the question in a slightly different way. What I'd like to know from you is what are your big outstanding questions for 2025 as it relates to the energy transition? Where are your big areas of focus?

Vanessa Chan: Look, for me, the most important thing, having done commercialization now for 20-something years is in the end, it's an ecosystem that is commercializing and it's mainly the private sector. And so a lot of the clean energy technologies that we are looking at, the technology actually works. The issue is it hasn't been scaled.

So what I think we need to do is look at the private sector and ask them why are they not moving faster on many things. To give you two examples, if you take a look at our innovative grid Liftoff report as well as our virtual power plant Liftoff report or distributed energy resources, as other people call it, there's actually technology that has been deployed and that is currently not being deployed by the ecosystem, even though the ROI on it is positive and actually pretty good.

So for example, there's dynamic line rating, reconductoring where you only need to spend 5% of the capital that you would need to actually create a grid. And if you were to do that, spend a 5% capital on these reconducting dynamic line rating, et cetera, you could actually increase the capacity of the grid by 30%, which is a large number, and we're not moving on that fast enough.

And so I think that's really what sometimes makes me scratch my head is I understand if there's risk, but we've shown that these technologies work, we've shown there's a return on them. So why is the private sector not acting on it? They're not acting on it because they like doing things the way they normally do it.

So that's what to me is really the most important is getting the private sector to act. I know I think underneath your question was really around there's a new government coming in, there's different people and so forth. And I get all of that. But in the end, it really comes down to the private sector.

And if you take a look at BIL and IRA, it was like $500 billion, which is very small compared to the $23 trillion. So with the Pathways to Commercial Liftoff, we showed everyone, "Here's what you need to do to commercialize these technologies." And so if the private sector acts, it can happen.

Lindsey Hall: I've asked you lots of questions, and you've been very generous with your time. But anything else that you think is important for our listeners to understand about outcomes from COP29 and also just sort of near-term outlook for the work that you do?

Vanessa Chan: I think in the end, COP29 in places like that are great because you're really having people aligned on the global stage. But for your listeners, and even for me, it was like a little bit of, "Okay, this is really important, but how do I have an impact through that?"

And that's why I think what's much more important is looking at where you are right now and what's the type of influence you can have or what are the changes that you can make to really make a difference. And I think that is much more important.

And what I would say for your listeners is it's really easy to follow the status quo and kind of do things and stay within a box, but that's not really where change and impact comes from. So I think for your listeners out there, go out and take a risk, do something that you think could make a difference, but you're not sure how to get there because part of the fun is the journey and seeing what you learn along the way.

If someone had told me 5 years ago that I would be a senior government official, I'd be like, "There's no way." That is not on my vision board. But I said yes to this opportunity because I'm like, "Wow, I'll get a chance to do something I've never done before." So I just wish more people did that, which was to take a risk and try something they've never done before because I really think when we do that, we will do some incredible stuff.

Lindsey Hall: Well, I think that's a great note to end on. Again, thank you very much for your time and sharing your perspective with our audience.

Vanessa Chan: Great. Thank you.

Lindsey Hall: Esther, I really love this interview, and I'm happy this is the note that we're ending the series on. What we heard from Vanessa just now is think outside the box. She said to say yes, even when you're not exactly sure where it will lead to.

And that's something you and I have been talking about recently as well, this idea of taking a leap. Also, I just loved her advice about the importance of creating a support system. This is certainly true for me as I try navigating the "work, kids, marriage" conundrum.

And then personal aside, Vanessa provided some useful guidance on what we can expect from the energy transition with the caveat that there is just a lot of uncertainty. She said, nuclear is absolutely part of that equation, however.

Esther Whieldon: And she talked about the importance of activating the private sector. She said, if the private sector isn't brought into the commercialization of clean energy technologies, it's not going to happen. We'll continue tracking trends in the energy transition, including for finance and technology, and we'll include a link in our show notes to the full Women in Leadership series in case you'd like to listen to previous episodes.

Lindsey Hall: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of ESG Insider. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe, share and leave us a review where you get your podcast.

Esther Whieldon: And a special thanks to our agency partner, The 199. See you next time.

Copyright ©2025 by S&P Global  

This piece was published by S&P Global Sustainable1, a part of S&P Global.     

DISCLAIMER  

By accessing this Podcast, I acknowledge that S&P GLOBAL makes no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this Podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice. Unless specifically stated otherwise, S&P GLOBAL does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned in this Podcast, and information from this Podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. The third party materials or content of any third party site referenced in this Podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions, standards or policies of S&P GLOBAL. S&P GLOBAL assumes no responsibility or liability for the accuracy or completeness of the content contained in third party materials or on third party sites referenced in this Podcast or the compliance with applicable laws of such materials and/or links referenced herein. Moreover, S&P GLOBAL makes no warranty that this Podcast, or the server that makes it available, is free of viruses, worms, or other elements or codes that manifest contaminating or destructive properties.  

S&P GLOBAL EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL'S USE OF, REFERENCE TO, RELIANCE ON, OR INABILITY TO USE, THIS PODCAST OR THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS PODCAST.